More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby MiddleAgedKen » Mon May 16, 2016 11:29 pm

Quelle surprise. :|
Watergate didn't have a body count.

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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Vonz90 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:49 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/23/navy-commodore-to-be-relieved-command-over-irans-capture-his-sailors.html

Good first step, they need to court martial some of the sailors on the boats too. They can start with the helmsman who refused a lawful command.

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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Vonz90 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:28 pm


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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Johnnyreb » Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:49 am

In the video bits I've seen of those 2 boats, it looks like they had some MGs aboard. But I have yet to see or hear it stated that they had any small arms with them. I have also not yet heard it said they even had any ammo.

Give the Obama rules of engagement, I would not be at all surprised to learn those boats were taken because they had nothing to shoot with.

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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Vonz90 » Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:33 am

Johnnyreb wrote:In the video bits I've seen of those 2 boats, it looks like they had some MGs aboard. But I have yet to see or hear it stated that they had any small arms with them. I have also not yet heard it said they even had any ammo.

Give the Obama rules of engagement, I would not be at all surprised to learn those boats were taken because they had nothing to shoot with.


They had weapons and ammo (or at least it has been reported as such). Apparently at least one of the enlisted disobeyed orders to take evasive action / resist from the SOPA. If that is in fact the case they should be executed for cowardice in the face of the enemy.

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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Mike OTDP » Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:29 am

The report is damning, BTW. There's an extensive discussion over at http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2016/ ... eased.html

Short form - The only question is whether to allow them to commit seppuku, or shoot them pour encourager l'autres. The latter is winning.

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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Wrenchbender1 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:23 pm

First off, I'm not trying to excuse their abysmal behavior after capture, but this unit was fucked by their command structure 6 ways from Sunday. Read pages 47-50 of the executive summary for a taste. Running boats in harsh conditions for 90 days with literally ZERO parts, only one mechanic, being forced to operate their boats at far less than optimal manning, AND having to run other crew's boats (Which were a different type than they were accustomed to) because they had rotated back to Kuwait, is complete horseshit.

This wasn't just a failure of the two crews. This was a clusterfuck, top to bottom.
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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Wrenchbender1 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:58 pm

Vonz90 wrote:Good first step, they need to court martial some of the sailors on the boats too. They can start with the helmsman who refused a lawful command.


If you haven't already, I would suggest reading the executive summary. (P. 83-84)
While he did refuse a lawful order, the report seems to leans toward his call probably being the best, given the situation. It also mentions that -------- (Presumably the Boat Captain) " ...subsequently reversed his (own) order, recognizing that evasion would likely have produced a worse outcome."


CDR Salamander is a little vague on getting to the report, so go to the link he attached, and then click "Hot Topics".
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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Vonz90 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:51 pm

Wrenchbender1 wrote:
Vonz90 wrote:Good first step, they need to court martial some of the sailors on the boats too. They can start with the helmsman who refused a lawful command.


If you haven't already, I would suggest reading the executive summary. (P. 83-84)
While he did refuse a lawful order, the report seems to leans toward his call probably being the best, given the situation. It also mentions that -------- (Presumably the Boat Captain) " ...subsequently reversed his (own) order, recognizing that evasion would likely have produced a worse outcome."


CDR Salamander is a little vague on getting to the report, so go to the link he attached, and then click "Hot Topics".


Under the circumstances, it was a command not an order. The Helmsman had no latitude of action other than to follow it. The scary part (from a professionalism standpoint) is that he did not even seem to realize that it was the case.

Would it have produced a worse outcome? I don't see how, the outcome that did happen was the worst possible one. Had they shot it up with the Iranians and been wiped out it would have been a better outcome.

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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Wrenchbender1 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:03 pm

Vonz90 wrote:
Wrenchbender1 wrote:Would it have produced a worse outcome? I don't see how, the outcome that did happen was the worst possible one. Had they shot it up with the Iranians and been wiped out it would have been a better outcome.


I'm not so sure. There's no doubt that this was a huge national embarrassment, as well as showing our military asleep at the switch. But if they had stitched up 4-5 Iranian gunboats, in Iranian territorial waters, less than 2 miles from Iranian soil, at best we'd look like we were trying to create our own Gleiwitz incident, assuming the Iranians backed down, and at worst we might have ended up with another war in our lap.
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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Vonz90 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:45 pm

Those boats had every right to be there (even if they were there by mistake). It is called the Right of Innocent Passage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocent_passage US warships (and others) occasionally do this on purpose (to both allied, neutral and hostile national waters) to exercise this right.

In short, they had every right to be there, the Iranians had not right to stop, detain or otherwise interfere with their navigation, and the boats had every right to defend themselves if the Iranians attempted to stop them.

As I said before, there was no "worse" result. The absolute worst possible result happened.

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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Wrenchbender1 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:20 pm

I was made aware of the Right of Innocent Passage while reading through the document, but legality has nothing to do with perception in the media. We all know that they will gladly twist the facts to suit whatever agenda they're pushing, which seems to be "Drag the US through the mud at every opportunity". Personally, I believe that we would have been made to look like bigger asses if we opened up on them. As for the Iranian's impression of our military, I really couldn't give two shits. If/When we ever get into a shooting war with them, overconfidence is a killer.

I'm not trying to change opinions, just sharing mine.
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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby First Shirt » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:23 pm

It's not the Iranians that I worry about so much, it's every other Third World sh*thole that has a coastline, that thinks it's okay to f**k with the Americans, because they're spineless dweebs, who don't have a set of balls in a whole boatload.
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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Wrenchbender1 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:39 pm

First Shirt wrote:It's not the Iranians that I worry about so much, it's every other Third World sh*thole that has a coastline, that thinks it's okay to f**k with the Americans, because they're spineless dweebs, who don't have a set of balls in a whole boatload.


Very good point. Just imagine their surprise when when meet a crew with their shit wired tight, which I think will be much more likely after the Navy analyses this incident and addresses their command, training, and procedural deficiencies. :twisted:
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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Kommander » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:16 pm

Back in the time of Nelson it was considered honorable for a ship to surrender without firing a shot if it was clear that it could neither flee nor give a good accounting of itself in battle IE a single frigate hemmed in by several ships of the line. I have not read the reports but until I find time to do so I can't dismiss out of hand the crews surender as being contrary to their duties. However it does look like there were a good deal of mistakes leading up to that point and that some officers may need to be court marshaled for those.

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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby First Shirt » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:09 pm

Wrenchbender1 wrote:Just imagine their surprise when when meet a crew with their shit wired tight, which I think will be much more likely after the Navy analyses this incident and addresses their command, training, and procedural deficiencies. :twisted:

But how likely is that, under the current mis-administration?
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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Vonz90 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:16 pm

Loosing your command without firing a shot (or even have the other side fire a shot) is the worst thing that could happen. Even back in the age of sale, they may surrender if their case was untenable, but they would at least fire one perfunctory shot for the sake of honor.

But that aside, you make the other side escalate. You SOS for support, you maneuver, you man your guns, you get on the bridge to bridge and tell them that you are a US warship and any attempt to board will be met by force. While this is going on you should be destroying crypto (you should have been practicing this and had a list of precedence for destruction). You make them have to escalate, because you don't know that they won't back down if they have to. Yes, we don't want to get shot, neither do they. Man the god damn guns and show them you will not be trifled with - you are a mother fucking US Navy warship. This is your fucking job!

I have done small boat ops in the NAG. I am not speaking theoretically. This is your fracking job and if you don't take it seriously, then you are disgracing the uniform.

Maybe none of that works and you get taken anyway. Okay, that is the fortune of war. On the other hand, maybe they back down. Maybe you delay things until you get support from big Navy and they run away rather than take it in the ass from an F18 fired Harpoon. Maybe they capture one boat but not the other. You don't know if you don't try.

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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby First Shirt » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:27 pm

Totally agree, but that's not what today's Navy is being taught. The Pueblo was burning classified as the NorKs came over the gunnels, but we don't teach that anymore. One of the Marines in the Pueblo crew cracked under the beatings, and he tried to drown himself in the honey bucket. Can you honestly see any of today's crewmembers doing that?

And under the current "leadership" would that even be noteworthy? Or would they just think he was stupid?
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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Vonz90 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:51 pm

First Shirt wrote:Totally agree, but that's not what today's Navy is being taught. The Pueblo was burning classified as the NorKs came over the gunnels, but we don't teach that anymore. One of the Marines in the Pueblo crew cracked under the beatings, and he tried to drown himself in the honey bucket. Can you honestly see any of today's crewmembers doing that?

And under the current "leadership" would that even be noteworthy? Or would they just think he was stupid?


My last deployed was 2010, and yes I could. Sailors will do it, but they have to know it is expected and train for it. Not doing so is a failure in leadership. I have seen fucked up units, they have always been out there. Failure has to hurt more than doing your duty- that is the only way to minimize it.

My last deployment was on the ground in A'stan. I went there to do a staff job and ended up commanding a force protection group. They didn't do that because it was running so hot - they wanted me to fix it. Same crap applies, make the expectations known, train the right way and get rid of the non-performers. It is not fancy but it works.

These clowns didn't do a navigation brief, didn't know their operational chain of command, didn't have a coms plan or a reaction plan. Negligence doesn't even begin to describe it.

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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby First Shirt » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:25 pm

Vonz90 wrote: Same crap applies, make the expectations known, train the right way and get rid of the non-performers. It is not fancy but it works.
These clowns didn't do a navigation brief, didn't know their operational chain of command, didn't have a coms plan or a reaction plan. Negligence doesn't even begin to describe it.

After I quit being an intel geek, and became an office dweeb first shirt, I had to deal with this for AF units deployed. And I'd start with the stuff they taught us at Fairchild (20 years before) , and they'd look at me like I was speaking Klingon. The only saving grace was that they'd all served together, and they understood the chain of command. (There are benefits to having Reserve units available!)

If one of mine had pulled this crap, they'd still be pulling me out of the rafters of the old hanger bay!!!!!
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Re: More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

Postby Wrenchbender1 » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:35 am

First Shirt wrote:
Wrenchbender1 wrote:But how likely is that, under the current mis-administration?


I only met about half a dozen generals during the time I was in, and the impression that I got from those few was that they were politicians who just happened to have brass on their collars (I have no doubt there are many exceptions, but that would work in the military's favor anyway). One of the things most politicians do best, is cover their ass.
In this case, ensuring adequate manning on small detachments, which would lessen the chance of procedures being skipped for the sake of making mission, Send all small boat crews to the Navy equivalent of SERE school (If that doesn't happen already), and remind the Navy as a whole that destruction of government property is sometimes a GOOD thing (/Cough Hainan Island /cough). If a damaged piece of equipment (in this case a boat) is limiting your options tactically, and anchoring you to a very bad situation, take the crew on board and sink the POS. A running gun battle's better than capture, or being on the receiving end of the O.K. Corral 2.0

Basically, I think that even with this administration it's possible, although probably for the wrong reasons (Self preservation at all levels rather than improving our nation's fighting force).
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