U.S. military and intelligence undermining Obama on Syria

[Kommander]

So Greg what exactly is the duty of the officers in this case? From what I can tell anecdotally allot of officers are planning on going private sector or moving to other government jobs to avoid this kind of stuff. Specifically I am thinking of my brother, a West Point graduate and First Lieutenant who is now considering resigning his commission as an infantry officer and becoming a Warrant officer in the Criminal Investigation Command because hes tired of the bullshit and believes that the army is not really interested in keeping him around anyway.

Deliberately not obeying orders because they're wrong also has a long tradition. However the traditional way to scold the issuer of said orders was to commit suicide. In this kinder, gentler era that tradition has been transmuted from suicide to resignation.

Can you give any reasonably recent historical examples of American officers commuting suicide as a way out of obeying "wrong" orders? The only army I can think of that did this in the last 100 years would be the Japanese.

[Greg]

So Greg what exactly is the duty of the officers in this case? From what I can tell anecdotally allot of officers are planning on going private sector or moving to other government jobs to avoid this kind of stuff. Specifically I am thinking of my brother, a West Point graduate and First Lieutenant who is now considering resigning his commission as an infantry officer and becoming a Warrant officer in the Criminal Investigation Command because hes tired of the bullshit and believes that the army is not really interested in keeping him around anyway.

What do you want me to tell you? Do what they think is right, and uphold their service oath. That can come with a cost.

You seem to expect there to always be a way out, where the good guys can always do the right thing at no cost to themselves without ever compromising their principles. And a pony. That's not how the world works.

Deliberately not obeying orders because they're wrong also has a long tradition. However the traditional way to scold the issuer of said orders was to commit suicide. In this kinder, gentler era that tradition has been transmuted from suicide to resignation.

Can you give any reasonably recent historical examples of American officers commuting suicide as a way out of obeying "wrong" orders? The only army I can think of that did this in the last 100 years would be the Japanese.

'Tradition' doesn't exclusively mean 'American tradition'. The most recent example I can think of is Captain Langsdorff of the Graf Spee.

We're new enough, and kinder and gentler enough, that we have a tradition of resigning. You ever heard of a plane called a 'Tomcat'?

[Termite]

'It's OK for the military to flagrantly disregard their orders, so long as they're doing something *I* like' .....

Come on, Greg, you know I didn't mean it like that........ .

The Hammster was sending troops in and the rumor is he wasn't standing anything down. He was immediately relieved. The wiki is a bit whitewashed, but my understanding is a quick phone call was placed to his XO and he was apprehended instantly.

I guess he was allowed to retire instead of being prosecuted, as long as he kept silent about what happened..........

[Aesop]

What is an officer to do when they know that if they continue to obey the Commander In Chief bad things (I. E, Bengazi) will continue, if the disobey and act against the CiC they will undermine the Constitution, and if they say "Fuck you sir, I'm going to tell the truth without let or hindrance from your political asswipes, and I'm willing to bet my stars on where the chips fall, you feckless traitor...sir." they will loose their careers, be slandered in the media, likely be prosecuted, and accomplish nothing.

Fuck their careers.
Pardon me, I meant to say
FUCK THEIR CAREERS.
Careerist chickenshits have cockpunched the entire military and gotten us to this hamstrung pussywhipped sorry fucking state of affairs we're in now, as a nation.
No one promised them a career.
There is, by no coincidence, not one goddamned thing in their oaths about a career.
Any officer whose career is in the top 50 things he thinks about when making a decision should be shot for cowardice and treason, on the spot, by the first 12 guys who happen by.
Then drawn, quartered, and burned.
Then have his ashes saved, to be fed to the next worthless asswipe found guilty of the same offense, as their last meal.
And so on.

And then they should go after his family.
Sideways, with a rusty chainsaw.
Until his entire tribe's DNA chain is but a paleological memory.



It should be an article of faith in all the services that no farther apart than every two years, a senior will present his subordinate officers with a situation where they can do the right thing, or do the expedient thing and save their careers.
Those choosing expedience should be processed for separation the same week.
They should be drummed out at an all hands formation, and berated in front of the entire command thusly:

Attention to orders:
Know ye that being tested, and found wanting, former (insert rank) (insert name(s)) have been stripped of all prior rank, and are hereby separated from any further obligation or position of responsibility.
(He/she/they) will henceforth be known as Chickenshit Douchebags, First Class, and their names entered on the permanent Roll Of Shame And Disgrace.
"You miserable pieces of excrement, upon whom your brethren and your nation depended for devotion to your duty even unto death weren't even willing to risk your miserable paychecks for the good of the unit, the service, and the nation. Depart from us, and we will speak your name no more without spitting afterwards to get the taste of it out of our mouths. Return to the anonymity of the great unwashed from which we took you, and never darken our doorsteps with your presence, because we do not know you, and we shall remember you no more."

They should have all rank and uniforms stripped off, be quick-timed out the main gate in their underclothes at the end of wet mops while the assembled formation boos and catcalls them, and have a pile of castoff rags for clothes hurled at them once outside, and the gates closed behind them.

After the first couple of hundred instances, we wouldn't need another such for about a generation.

[toad]

How's that oath go, "defend the Constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic." pity, but it looks like over the years indoctrination to present the idea that the Constitution doesn't matter has taken root in the upper ranks of a large number of the military and other executive branches, and thus they feel no remorse in violating their oaths to the Constitution or any other oath for that matter. One you start ignoring one oath for what ever reason, you start ignoring other oaths so you can feather your nest. Of course the shit will build up in your nest, you get mites and lice, and the next thing you know you are getting pushed into the burn pit alive or dead.

[PawPaw]

When I was a rookie trooper, I was taught that the "obeying orders defense" died at Nuremberg.

Twice during my career, I was forced to say; "With respect sir, I will require written guidance on that order so that when the Convening Authority meets, I can provide an affirmative defense."

In both cases, after due consideration, those orders were rescinded immediately. The last time I said that was in 1989. I'm surprised that officers don't say it routinely under this administration.

[Kommander]

Any officer whose career is in the top 50 things he thinks about when making a decision should be shot for cowardice and treason, on the spot, by the first 12 guys who happen by.
Then drawn, quartered, and burned.
Then have his ashes saved, to be fed to the next worthless asswipe found guilty of the same offense, as their last meal.
And so on.

And then they should go after his family.
Sideways, with a rusty chainsaw.
Until his entire tribe's DNA chain is but a paleological memory.

Well its not every day that someone want's to execute the entirety of the U.S. Officer corps and their families, and by extension me.

[Greg]

Any officer whose career is in the top 50 things he thinks about when making a decision should be shot for cowardice and treason, on the spot, by the first 12 guys who happen by.
Then drawn, quartered, and burned.
Then have his ashes saved, to be fed to the next worthless asswipe found guilty of the same offense, as their last meal.
And so on.

And then they should go after his family.
Sideways, with a rusty chainsaw.
Until his entire tribe's DNA chain is but a paleological memory.

Well its not every day that someone want's to execute the entirety of the U.S. Officer corps and their families, and by extension me.

I was rather more gentle than Aesop, but if you're on here bleating about your brother's career (not even *your own*) prospects then the careerist sickness has got you too and you are in fact in a minor way, part of the problem.

[JAG2955]

I had a big, long rambling post, but I think that it should be boiled down to this:

Do I think that our strategies on stuff like Benghazi, Syria, and ISIS had/have some of the most fucked-up (and damn downright treasonous) decisions made? Yes. Now, if only someone could tell me where my line to protect and defend the Constitution ends and when I'm unilaterally making foreign policy decisions begins. Because if memory serves me correctly, that's just as illegal.

[Aesop]

Any officer whose career is in the top 50 things he thinks about when making a decision should be shot for cowardice and treason, on the spot, by the first 12 guys who happen by.
Then drawn, quartered, and burned.
Then have his ashes saved, to be fed to the next worthless asswipe found guilty of the same offense, as their last meal.
And so on.

And then they should go after his family.
Sideways, with a rusty chainsaw.
Until his entire tribe's DNA chain is but a paleological memory.

Well its not every day that someone want's to execute the entirety of the U.S. Officer corps and their families, and by extension me.

Not the entirety of the U.S. Officer corps. Just the careerists. (A prodigious number, to be sure, but nowhere near 100% of anything. Though if it is, as bad as things are, I'm all out of fucks to give.)

So if the shoe fits...

But I'm open-minded on this.
On various shelves hereabouts, I have copies of the Officer's Guides for the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines, as well as the Army and Marine NCO Guides, the Guidebook For Marines editions from 1965-ish to 2012, the Bluejacket's Manual, the Coast Guard marlinspike seamanship book, the Navy Watchstander's and Deck Officer's guides, as well as the Army field manual on Military Leadership, in various editions from pre WWII to post-Vietnam.

So just let me know wherein those much perused pages I may find the hitherto overlooked chapters on how and why a military leader ought to consider his own career interests ahead of such petty things as the mission, the men, the nation, or such sundry leadership traits as integrity, courage, duty, and so on, because a leader's career is any of the first 50 things to consider in making decisions, and I'll happily take it all back.

I tried cross-referencing Courtney Massengale, but found there was no overlap between him and my named sources.