And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

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And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Langenator » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:56 pm

The Marine Corps has authorized MARSOC operators to carry Glock pistols, since many of the elite outfit's members prefer the popular 9mm over the custom .45 pistols the service bought them in 2012.

http://m.military.com/daily-news/2015/0 ... oc-45.html
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby PawPaw » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:08 pm

The hell you say.
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Netpackrat » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:15 pm

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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Vonz90 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:24 pm

I do not know much about MARSOC, but I imagine that this is just like the question of "what rifle/pistol/knife/whatever the SEALs use?"

The answer of course being just about everything at some time or another because the different teams do different things, they have a lot of freedom to pick what they want and it changes early and often depending on the individuals and what they are doing.

Meh.

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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Weetabix » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:47 pm

I have only limited experience with 1911's. Limited, I think, to having shot Felix's in California one delightful day at the range. So I may be asking dumb questions here.

"Beavertail grip safety?" I thought the beaver tail was the thing that keeps the slide from hitting your hand and the grip safety was on the grip. I don't remember the grip safety being a problem. I have an XD9 with a grip safety. Again, I've not had a problem with it. This one sounds like a training issue. I thought Special Operations guys got a lot of training.

"Horizontal stovepipe?" Isn't that an FTE?

I don't know about the other malfunction issues. I'll let the better informed speak to those.
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby PawPaw » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:14 pm

"Horizontal stovepipe?" Isn't that an FTE?

Yeah. Limp-wristed Nancy-boys get those. Those same limp-wristed Nancy-boys that have a problem with the grip safety.

I don't have a problem with Glock or 1911. Own both, shoot both. Shoot them well. But, if you're limp-wristing your Glock you'll get stovepipes too. Just sayin'.
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Rod » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:28 pm

Weetabix wrote:I have only limited experience with 1911's. Limited, I think, to having shot Felix's in California one delightful day at the range. So I may be asking dumb questions here.

"Beavertail grip safety?" I thought the beaver tail was the thing that keeps the slide from hitting your hand and the grip safety was on the grip. I don't remember the grip safety being a problem. I have an XD9 with a grip safety. Again, I've not had a problem with it. This one sounds like a training issue. I thought Special Operations guys got a lot of training.

"Horizontal stovepipe?" Isn't that an FTE?

I don't know about the other malfunction issues. I'll let the better informed speak to those.

Terminology, the grip safety is integral in the back of the frame under the hammer, it pushed against a flat spring to release the hammer when depressed; the "beavertail" is the top of the grip safety that protects your hand. Very complex explanation in the following two pictures.
Standard grip safety
standard.jpg

Beavertail grip safety
beaver.jpg
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Weetabix » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:29 am

Gotcha. It looks like the bottom one would be easier with gloves than the top one. I confess, then, that I don't understand the problem they're trying to describe.
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Jericho941 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:32 am

Seems to me that with a tendency to grip too high, they're not getting enough leverage on the grip safety, so it doesn't disengage. While that could be a training problem, it might be a tricky one to fix, since a lot of pistol training emphasizes getting as high of a grip as possible.

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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Weetabix » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:36 am

Jericho941 wrote:Seems to me that with a tendency to grip too high, they're not getting enough leverage on the grip safety, so it doesn't disengage. While that could be a training problem, it might be a tricky one to fix, since a lot of pistol training emphasizes getting as high of a grip as possible.

I'd think Marines should understand "high and tight." :P
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Rod » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:27 am

Weetabix wrote:Gotcha. It looks like the bottom one would be easier with gloves than the top one. I confess, then, that I don't understand the problem they're trying to describe.
GOOD! Thought the technical details might be too hard to understand. :lol:
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby randy » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:04 am

Based on the problems listed in the article for the 1911, sounds like a hardware solution to a training issue.

That being said, I approve of allowing troops having some leeway in picking gear that they are comfortable with and have confidence in, particularly SOF troops. (within reasonable limits taking into account the increased logistics tail this brings)
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Erik » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:18 am

Jericho941 wrote:Seems to me that with a tendency to grip too high, they're not getting enough leverage on the grip safety, so it doesn't disengage. While that could be a training problem, it might be a tricky one to fix, since a lot of pistol training emphasizes getting as high of a grip as possible.

Not really. I have a very high grip, and it's never been a problem for me. It's only a problem when it's combined with the loose grip (that also causes stovepipes). If you get a good grip, the grip will always press the grip safety, because you wont be able to grip around the beavertail no matter how high the grip is. The grip will automatically be around the grip safety.

I've seen shooters in competition pull the gun from the holster using only their fingers, and they dont get a proper grip until the first shot "sets" the gun in the hand. While this is arguably fast it might not press the grip safety enough to disengage it, and it also often causes them to miss the first shot due to the poor grip. Hence why some of them pin the grip safety, so the gun will fire regardless of the grip. Personally I think it's a poor solution, if you dont have a proper grip you wont be able to shoot with any accuracy anyway, but that's the thinking.
Another problem I've seen caused by poor grip is shooters that engage the thumb safety or even press the magazine release when the gun recoils.

I imagine that if the soldiers use gloves it could make this problem worse since they would have less of a feel, which might cause them to not grip the gun hard enough. But I still think it's a training issue and not a gun design issue. You wont be able to shoot any gun very well with a poor grip. For instance if you grab a Glock with a too high and loose grip the slide could hit your hand or the accuracy would be awful.
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby mekender » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:26 am

To be honest, if I were going into a combat situation where I would likely need my sidearm, the durability and magazine capacity of the Glock would win hands down.

IMO the real down side to the switch to a 9mm is that the rounds are likely to over-penetrate more than a .45 since they have to use ball ammo...
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Jericho941 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:59 am

Erik wrote:
Jericho941 wrote:Seems to me that with a tendency to grip too high, they're not getting enough leverage on the grip safety, so it doesn't disengage. While that could be a training problem, it might be a tricky one to fix, since a lot of pistol training emphasizes getting as high of a grip as possible.

Not really. I have a very high grip, and it's never been a problem for me. It's only a problem when it's combined with the loose grip (that also causes stovepipes). If you get a good grip, the grip will always press the grip safety, because you wont be able to grip around the beavertail no matter how high the grip is. The grip will automatically be around the grip safety.

I've seen shooters in competition pull the gun from the holster using only their fingers, and they dont get a proper grip until the first shot "sets" the gun in the hand. While this is arguably fast it might not press the grip safety enough to disengage it, and it also often causes them to miss the first shot due to the poor grip. Hence why some of them pin the grip safety, so the gun will fire regardless of the grip. Personally I think it's a poor solution, if you dont have a proper grip you wont be able to shoot with any accuracy anyway, but that's the thinking.
Another problem I've seen caused by poor grip is shooters that engage the thumb safety or even press the magazine release when the gun recoils.

I imagine that if the soldiers use gloves it could make this problem worse since they would have less of a feel, which might cause them to not grip the gun hard enough. But I still think it's a training issue and not a gun design issue. You wont be able to shoot any gun very well with a poor grip. For instance if you grab a Glock with a too high and loose grip the slide could hit your hand or the accuracy would be awful.


Huh, interesting.

mekender wrote:IMO the real down side to the switch to a 9mm is that the rounds are likely to over-penetrate more than a .45 since they have to use ball ammo...

Special "operator" types generally aren't held back by this the way everyone else usually is.

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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby TheArmsman » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:05 am

Read the report, and says they are going to use the Glock 19. That is the midsize one, rather than the 17, the fullsize version. What is up with that?

Have been shooting the 1911 since the early 80's, with and without gloves, and never once had a failure to fire due to the grip safety not being engaged. Sounds like a training problem.

Would still rather use a G17.
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Aesop » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:05 am

Whatever.

If they're down to their jeezly sidearms, things have already gone pretty pear-shaped anyways.

For all the difference it'd make, they could probably issue Colt SAAs and Ruger Vaqueros, and let them carry in anydamncaliber they could find.
There would be 0.002 anecdotal stories per decade about anyone notable who gave a crap, or any noticeable change in outcomes IRL.

The only real news in the piece is that, contrary to 240 years of official MarCorps policy, they're actually giving individual Marines a choice.
Somewhere, someone's 0-6 head will roll for that fuck-up. :lol:

Oh, and total number of women who have qualified for MARSOC: still zero.

So the companion story should soon announce that the Rangers will now be allowing pink Lady Smiths for optional carry. In their tactical purses. :P
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But if somebody doesn't stick a knife in the F-35 Thunderjug before it eats the entire USMC budget for the next two decades, MARSOC will be selling cookies outside supermarkets to have enough money to train.
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby mekender » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:27 am

Aesop wrote:MARSOC will be selling cookies outside supermarkets to have enough money to train.


I can see it now... "I'll have a box of Gunny's Skull Fuck Mints and a box of PFC Numbnuts Last Batch"
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby PawPaw » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:04 pm

If the grip safety bothers you, there's always the option oftying it down like Texas Ranger Charlie Miller did.
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That sort of negates the whole problem, but might cause other problems.
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Langenator » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:49 pm

TheArmsman wrote:Read the report, and says they are going to use the Glock 19. That is the midsize one, rather than the 17, the fullsize version. What is up with that?


Well, IIRC, the SEALs use the SiG P226 or P229 (the M11, whichever that was), which I believe is comparable to the G19. The ones I saw in the 'Stan carried them on the chest of their body armor, above the rifle mags. May explain why they want something a bit smaller, if MARSOC guys tend to carry theirs in a similar manner.
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby TheArmsman » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:34 pm

I carried a G17 with a flashlight above my mags on my plate carrier. No problem with space or drawing.

One thing carrying like that, is that trigger discipline is highly important. Every time you drawer or holster, you are muzzling the people to the right or left or you, depending on which you shoot with.

Worked very well while in vehicles. Hip holsters were very hard to draw from, due to the tightness of the seats and seat belts. Thigh holsters sucked big donkey dicks. If it was on the side of the leg, door got in the way. If you moved it to the top of the thigh, had to contort to get it out, time which one we did not have. And if you had to drive, the limited space was at a premium.
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Weetabix » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:47 pm

Erik wrote:
Jericho941 wrote:Seems to me that with a tendency to grip too high, they're not getting enough leverage on the grip safety, so it doesn't disengage. While that could be a training problem, it might be a tricky one to fix, since a lot of pistol training emphasizes getting as high of a grip as possible.

Not really. I have a very high grip, and it's never been a problem for me. It's only a problem when it's combined with the loose grip (that also causes stovepipes). If you get a good grip, the grip will always press the grip safety, because you wont be able to grip around the beavertail no matter how high the grip is. The grip will automatically be around the grip safety.

I've seen shooters in competition pull the gun from the holster using only their fingers, and they dont get a proper grip until the first shot "sets" the gun in the hand. While this is arguably fast it might not press the grip safety enough to disengage it, and it also often causes them to miss the first shot due to the poor grip. Hence why some of them pin the grip safety, so the gun will fire regardless of the grip. Personally I think it's a poor solution, if you dont have a proper grip you wont be able to shoot with any accuracy anyway, but that's the thinking.
Another problem I've seen caused by poor grip is shooters that engage the thumb safety or even press the magazine release when the gun recoils.

I imagine that if the soldiers use gloves it could make this problem worse since they would have less of a feel, which might cause them to not grip the gun hard enough. But I still think it's a training issue and not a gun design issue. You wont be able to shoot any gun very well with a poor grip. For instance if you grab a Glock with a too high and loose grip the slide could hit your hand or the accuracy would be awful.

A lot of that is how I imagined it would work, but I didn't have enough confidence in my speculation to say it out loud. :D
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby toad » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:44 am

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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Old Grafton » Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:35 pm

I carry what I want. Why not service personnel doing the same (within the limits of spares/ammo/training commonality)? Hell, at pistol-fighting distances in a combat zone a gladius might also come in damn handy.
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Jericho941 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:54 pm

Old Grafton wrote:I carry what I want. Why not service personnel doing the same (within the limits of spares/ammo/training commonality)? Hell, at pistol-fighting distances in a combat zone a gladius might also come in damn handy.

Because outside of cutlery, the military will not trust you with anything they have not directly issued and trained you with. The days of a personally-owned sidearm are long past for anyone but the most operational operators operating operationally.

Remember, it's a government organization. Which means that if it can have an idiotic, bureaucratic process attached to it, it will.

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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby JAG2955 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:31 pm

Jericho941 wrote:Remember, it's a government organization. Which means that if it can have an idiotic, bureaucratic process attached to it, it will.


Jericho's law?

I like it.

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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Aesop » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:16 pm

Jericho941 wrote:
Old Grafton wrote:I carry what I want. Why not service personnel doing the same (within the limits of spares/ammo/training commonality)? Hell, at pistol-fighting distances in a combat zone a gladius might also come in damn handy.

Because outside of cutlery, the military will not trust you with anything they have not directly issued and trained you with. The days of a personally-owned sidearm are long past for anyone but the most operational operators operating operationally.

Remember, it's a government organization. Which means that if it can have an idiotic, bureaucratic process attached to it, it will.

Damn right.

Remember too that unless you breed cattle adjacent to a nuclear plant, the closest thing you'll ever see to tits on a bull is a military pistol, since back to when gunpowder first became a thing.
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby MarkD » Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:38 pm

Jericho941 wrote:
Old Grafton wrote:I carry what I want. Why not service personnel doing the same (within the limits of spares/ammo/training commonality)? Hell, at pistol-fighting distances in a combat zone a gladius might also come in damn handy.

Because outside of cutlery, the military will not trust you with anything they have not directly issued and trained you with. The days of a personally-owned sidearm are long past for anyone but the most operational operators operating operationally.

Remember, it's a government organization. Which means that if it can have an idiotic, bureaucratic process attached to it, it will.


On top of which:

1) When your pistol goes tits-up in asscrackistan, it would be nice if parts to repair it were in the same time zone. Or hemisphere.

2) It would be nice if the guy whose pistol just went tits-up could pick yours up off your corpse and try to keep himself alive, and if he knew how to work it as well as his own.

3) It's also nice to be able to make two or three non-functioning weapons into one functioning weapon, which (the memorable scene in The Good, The Bad and the Ugly notwithstanding) only happens if all the weapons are more-or-less the same.

A Seal team can each carry whatever they want, and they can carry spare parts in a couple shoeboxes. An infantry division needs a 40' container for spare pistol parts even if they're all carrying the same pistol.

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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Jericho941 » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:02 am

All of those concerns are much bigger issues for primary weapons than sidearms, which still aren't commonly issued to begin with. It's primarily a version of #2 that's the issue: Control.

For the most part, weapons are considered a liability. Any variable is to be eliminated wherever possible. This means knowing about all the guns and ammo that are issued, and making sure that everyone who handles them has been through a directly-related training course to prove they're probably not going to come down with a case of Glock Leg or play the Trust Game. And that nobody decides that it's his day to die and starts shooting people with a stolen weapon.

Now, to some degree this is handled a little more loosely with the combat troops than the rear echelon guys. On the infantry side of things, my brother told me that they really didn't care too much about bullet count or whatnot. On the POG side of things, a missing bullet is an Article 15, because Haji has telekinetic powers and can fire loose 5.56 with sheer hatred of Mom and apple pie.

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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Netpackrat » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:58 am

MarkD wrote:A Seal team can each carry whatever they want, and they can carry spare parts in a couple shoeboxes. An infantry division needs a 40' container for spare pistol parts even if they're all carrying the same pistol.


As one with some amount of experience with 40' containers, I strongly suspect that the entire US military's total inventory of service pistols could fit into one 40' container, with room to spare.
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby JAG2955 » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:15 am

Netpackrat wrote:
MarkD wrote:A Seal team can each carry whatever they want, and they can carry spare parts in a couple shoeboxes. An infantry division needs a 40' container for spare pistol parts even if they're all carrying the same pistol.


As one with some amount of experience with 40' containers, I strongly suspect that the entire US military's total inventory of service pistols could fit into one 40' container, with room to spare.


A division probably has a 40' CONEX for ALL of their small arm and crew served weapon spare parts. The armorers probably also stuffed it with booze and porn prior to stateside departure.

I think that the spare parts issue is overblown. In reality, the vast majority of the spare parts for damn near everything will come from either the states, or an Expeditionary Support Base. (It's almost like I used to do this for a living). An infantry division's spare pistol parts box is probably a Pelican case or two.

In reality, it should come down to:
1. If you NEED a pistol, you will be issued one. Tough cookies, it's brand ABC.
2. If you WANT a pistol, pick something smart in caliber X. Don't pick something dumb, like a Hi-Point, your seniors will supervise your decision.

With the official weapon of officers and SNCOs now being an M4, this issue should be dead. If you're a tanker and can't effectively keep an M4 with you, here's your M-whatever pistol. Everyone else could benefit much more from having an M4. I'm also the guy that thinks that the pogue weapon should be a 10-12" barreled M4 with a slightly shorter stock, like one of the LWRC ones. Easy to sling out of the way to do your job, enough range to put hurting on a bad guy.

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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby blackeagle603 » Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:54 am

Got it some range time on the way home from work. Exercised the S&W 22A and Colt Dick Special.

Made the mistake of coon fingering a CZ75 compact 9mm on the way out thru the store. My palms broke a sweat, I exited quickly with my wallet still intact. Perhaps it will be gone after Black Friday and remove the temptation from my area of operations.
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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Jericho941 » Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:08 am

JAG2955 wrote:
Netpackrat wrote:
MarkD wrote:A Seal team can each carry whatever they want, and they can carry spare parts in a couple shoeboxes. An infantry division needs a 40' container for spare pistol parts even if they're all carrying the same pistol.


As one with some amount of experience with 40' containers, I strongly suspect that the entire US military's total inventory of service pistols could fit into one 40' container, with room to spare.


A division probably has a 40' CONEX for ALL of their small arm and crew served weapon spare parts. The armorers probably also stuffed it with booze and porn prior to stateside departure.

I think that the spare parts issue is overblown. In reality, the vast majority of the spare parts for damn near everything will come from either the states, or an Expeditionary Support Base. (It's almost like I used to do this for a living). An infantry division's spare pistol parts box is probably a Pelican case or two.

In reality, it should come down to:
1. If you NEED a pistol, you will be issued one. Tough cookies, it's brand ABC.
2. If you WANT a pistol, pick something smart in caliber X. Don't pick something dumb, like a Hi-Point, your seniors will supervise your decision.

With the official weapon of officers and SNCOs now being an M4, this issue should be dead. If you're a tanker and can't effectively keep an M4 with you, here's your M-whatever pistol. Everyone else could benefit much more from having an M4. I'm also the guy that thinks that the pogue weapon should be a 10-12" barreled M4 with a slightly shorter stock, like one of the LWRC ones. Easy to sling out of the way to do your job, enough range to put hurting on a bad guy.

At Bagram, it always struck me as bizarre that they gave us M16s but the guys going out to play in the mountains had M4s.

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Re: And with that, thousands of new flame wars were launched

Postby Aesop » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:49 pm

Jericho941 wrote:At Bagram, it always struck me as bizarre that they gave us M16s but the guys going out to play in the mountains had M4s.


When you're humping all day, ounces equal pounds, and pounds equal pain.
The farthest you probably had to walk with it was from billets to the perimeter.
Granted it would have made doing your day job easier with a smaller and lighter version, but things in the .mil aren't supposed to make total sense.
And switching the entire force to M4s takes time and money, neither of which the military has in abundance any more.
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