Engineers in Oregon

[Vonz90]

http://theinstitute.ieee.org/ieee-round ... -infringed

It is safe to call themselves engineer again.

[BDK]

I know nothing about the profession on engineering, or how common it is for a person who works as an engineer, to be licensed as one, but it is irritating when many people call themselves something they are not, fully*.

(Its astounding how often people claim to be "lawyers", socially, when they've never been licensed/sworn in/taken on those legal responsibilities, etc. I imagine other professions run into similar situations.)

[blackeagle603]

Engineers and those who live and traffic among them understand what a PE is -- and what a degreed engineer is -- and recognize even such a thing as non-degreed engineers. I don't know a one of them in a company with many thousands of them that have an issue with what this guy did in identifying as an engineer.

[Vonz90]

I know nothing about the profession on engineering, or how common it is for a person who works as an engineer, to be licensed as one, but it is irritating when many people call themselves something they are not, fully*.

(Its astounding how often people claim to be "lawyers", socially, when they've never been licensed/sworn in/taken on those legal responsibilities, etc. I imagine other professions run into similar situations.)

Being a licensed professional engineer (PE) means that one has been tested and certified by a state to sign/stamp legal documents; most particularly as relating to the building codes and standards of that state. It is a relatively common and necessary component of civil and architectural engineering and related fields. One can actually still practice engineering in those fields without a PE, but when complete the drawings have to be stamped by a PE (it could be a third party consultant for instance). Since there is typically a 5-7 year work experience requirement before one can get a PE, so by definition an engineer has to work as an engineer without a PE to get a PE.

Having a PE gets you exactly nothing outside of those fields with only very narrow exceptions (courts recognize it as a bona fides for instance). As an example, in product development (where I have made my living for the last 20 years) it gets one less than nothing. I have never worked with a product development engineer with a PE in either big companies or small. The vast majority of working engineers are not PE's and it would be a stupid waist of time and money to require them to be so. I have met a couple sales engineers who have gotten theirs, but only because it looks good on a business card to people who don't know jack about it.

Preventing anyone from calling themselves an Engineer unless they have a PE is simply a power grab. In this particular case it was an effort to get this guy to shut up about criticizing the way the state set up their traffic light cameras, which just so happened to be in his field where he is a widely renowned expert. The 1st Amendment kept them from attacking him generally, so they latched on this point. From what I have read more widely on the subject, the Oregon board has a history of doing similar actions to other people and they actually admitted they were wrong in this case in an attempt to prevent a broader injunction.

[blackeagle603]

As an example, in product development (where I have made my living for the last 20 years) it gets one less than nothing.

^^what he said^^

True in my r&d and product engineering world as well. You tout yourself as a PE and you'll never live it down. The response to that sort of chest puffery is like what happens in a NavAir ready room: you get a special callsign and makes you a special case on Wog Day. It's fine to have it on your business cards or formal email response sig lines for comm's outside the company. Inside the engineering company it's pure meritocracy.

Preventing anyone from calling themselves an Engineer unless they have a PE is simply a power grab.

Indeed, it's the high priestly class trying to shut up the peasants who dare to read the holy text and learn for themselves. It's like an MD dismissing you when you dare ask about the safety and efficacy of taking statins.

[Mike OTDP]

Yup. A PE's ticket is good if you're in Civil Engineering...otherwise, it's an interesting nice-to-have, but don't put much ego into it.

I will say that a PE license is useful if you went through an engineering program that doesn't have a high reputation - you can smack HR people with it. I knew a guy in the mid-'80s who was quite competent, but had graduated from a small school. He got the PE to get recognized by the Personnel office. With his boss' support in the endeavor.

[Weetabix]

Chiming in as a PE licensed in each of the contiguous 48 states for general information. BE's "chest puffing" comment below feels real, even to a guy who needs a PE to work. I only admit to being licensed in multiple states when it's germane to the discussion at hand - mostly if someone asks, usually a client who needs someone licensed in multiple states. So, I'm only saying that to say that I can speak to regulations in multiple states.

Being a licensed professional engineer (PE) means that one has been tested and certified by a state to sign/stamp legal documents; most particularly as relating to the building codes and standards of that state. It is a relatively common and necessary component of civil and architectural engineering and related fields.

All true.

One can actually still practice engineering in those fields without a PE, but when complete the drawings have to be stamped by a PE (it could be a third party consultant for instance). Since there is typically a 5-7 year work experience requirement before one can get a PE, so by definition an engineer has to work as an engineer without a PE to get a PE.

A PE should only seal drawings prepared under his supervision. Consultants should not seal drawings unless they can direct the preparation of the drawings. Otherwise, you get in trouble for "plan stamping." There are exceptions for standard drawings from large companies like hotels or something, but the PE assumes responsibility for those. And, when I was licensed, I needed 4 years of professional practice under a licensed PE.

Having a PE gets you exactly nothing outside of those fields with only very narrow exceptions (courts recognize it as a bona fides for instance). As an example, in product development (where I have made my living for the last 20 years) it gets one less than nothing. I have never worked with a product development engineer with a PE in either big companies or small. The vast majority of working engineers are not PE's and it would be a stupid waist of time and money to require them to be so. I have met a couple sales engineers who have gotten theirs, but only because it looks good on a business card to people who don't know jack about it.

I believe you. My best friend is an EE in product development. Occasionally, he frets over not having a PE. I tell him not to worry. I suppose it might impress some clients. Might be worth it for that. But it's not legally required, so why do it? There are exemptions to licensure for industry, government (which seems hypocritical to me), product development, plant engineering, etc. Basically, if you're engineering for one entity that employs you, you probably have an exemption.

Preventing anyone from calling themselves an Engineer unless they have a PE is simply a power grab. In this particular case it was an effort to get this guy to shut up about criticizing the way the state set up their traffic light cameras, which just so happened to be in his field where he is a widely renowned expert. The 1st Amendment kept them from attacking him generally, so they latched on this point. From what I have read more widely on the subject, the Oregon board has a history of doing similar actions to other people and they actually admitted they were wrong in this case in an attempt to prevent a broader injunction.

I agree. Some of the boards (not limited to engineering) and some of the professional societies sometimes appear to me to have some of the worse tendencies of guilds and unions. It often seems their goal is to make it harder for people to provide services. That makes me uncomfortable.

I do admit that plopping "engineer" after a job anyone can do makes me smile. "Domestic Engineer" rather than homemaker. "Sanitary Engineer" rather than garbage man. Stuff like that. But it doesn't offend me or make me feel litigious.

OTOH, if you're designing something for a third party, and it involves a risk to public health, safety, or welfare, then come down on them. But commenting on traffic lights? No.

[Vonz90]

One can actually still practice engineering in those fields without a PE, but when complete the drawings have to be stamped by a PE (it could be a third party consultant for instance). Since there is typically a 5-7 year work experience requirement before one can get a PE, so by definition an engineer has to work as an engineer without a PE to get a PE.

A PE should only seal drawings prepared under his supervision. Consultants should not seal drawings unless they can direct the preparation of the drawings. Otherwise, you get in trouble for "plan stamping." There are exceptions for standard drawings from large companies like hotels or something, but the PE assumes responsibility for those. And, when I was licensed, I needed 4 years of professional practice under a licensed PE.

I do admit that plopping "engineer" after a job anyone can do makes me smile. "Domestic Engineer" rather than homemaker. "Sanitary Engineer" rather than garbage man. Stuff like that. But it doesn't offend me or make me feel litigious.

OTOH, if you're designing something for a third party, and it involves a risk to public health, safety, or welfare, then come down on them. But commenting on traffic lights? No.

It does not bother me to apply the word engineer to many things because it is a word with several definitions most of which predate the idea of a specifically educated and certified person, much less one designated to design fixed structures to government code. The whole reason we call Civil Engineering that is to distinguish them from military engineers who built fortifications and siege engines and whatnot, which is more or less the main use of the word up to sometime in the 1800's. My undergrad degree actually does not say engineering (Naval Architecture - think Mechanical Engineering for ships) because it is a field that is old enough to predate the idea the word engineer specifically tied to that sort of activity.

Relative to "a risk to public health, safety, or welfare" - that would describe almost everything I have worked on in my career (Automotive, industrial circuit protection, now HVAC). The difference is that we do not build one of these things, we build many of them. Many products I have designed/engineered have been made in the millions, and sold all over the world for some of them too. Should I get a PE for every country a product is sold in? And even if I had it, so? What does that say about the products themselves? The engineers designing the products do not get certified, the products get certified. That is the whole point to UL, CSA, ETL, CCC, and the European CE/IEC certifications. Or where applicable DOE and DOT standards, etc. You build parts, you test them, the design gets certified to that applicable standards and then you sell your product.

Some critical products (like when I worked in circuit protection) are actually required to be pulled from production periodically and undergo destructive testing to ensure they meet the standards ongoing. Others are good to go, unless the design is changed and then they have to be re-certified.

Of course they are not going to destroy a couple dozen high rise buildings or bridges in testing to certify the design to allow it to be built for production. Thus the codes and standards designed by a PE model for that type of stuff.

[Weetabix]

I hope it didn't sound like I was disagreeing with you, because I wasn't. And I understand about product certification, though probably not as well as you do. I was just adding to the information regarding PE's. And probably tunnel visioning a bit on the civil side.

[Gunnuts]

Meh, you guys would be nothing without a good drafter to turn the crap you smear on paper into fine technical drawings.