Texas church shooting

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Texas church shooting

Postby Termite » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:24 pm

In Sutherland Springs, Texas, outside of San Antonio.

Multiple people killed, more wounded.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/05/us/texas- ... index.html


Internet rumor currently says the shooter was Antifa.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby blackeagle603 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:21 pm

O dear Lord...
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby scipioafricanus » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:40 pm

Could this be a nut starting "the revolution" that was supposed to start yesterday?
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby blackeagle603 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:02 am

Now the stuff starts to come in... 72 hour rule applies for bare minimum facts to be established.

So what's this "news" site?Looks tin foily on the face of it. Reporting the shooter is a 29 year old prior service Marine who converted to Islam who left a video manifesto on line.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Termite » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:24 am

Rumor has it the Texas DPS- Criminal Investigation branch is taking the lead. IIRC, that's the Texas Rangers.
EDIT: YEP, sure is.

Abbott should call Trump and ask him to keep the FBI in the background, as the FBI is likely compromised.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Precision » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:31 am

Termite wrote:Rumor has it the Texas DPS- Criminal Investigation branch is taking the lead. IIRC, that's the Texas Rangers.
EDIT: YEP, sure is.

Abbott should call Trump and ask him to keep the FBI in the background, as the FBI is likely compromised.


From what I have been reading (prior to this) all useful FBI training material that is even slightly negative on Islam has been purged from all official teaching events.

compromised is when they do it to us. Manifestly corrupt or worse is when we do it to ourselves.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby randy » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:38 am

And the blood dancing begins

Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal has called on Congress to act on gun control in the wake of the latest mass shooting.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Langenator » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:40 am

FYI:

Per TPC 46.035 (b)(6) "A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder's person...on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship."
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Netpackrat » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:17 am

One report I saw indicated that the shooter had been dishonorably discharged from the Air Force.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Langenator » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:38 am

If so, he was legally barred from possessing or purchasing a firearm. AFAIK.

If he did receive a DD, I wonder if someone bought the gun for him, or if NICS failed?
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Jered » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:47 am

Kelley is a former U.S. Air Force member who served from 2010 to 2014. He was dishonorably discharged and court martialed in May 2014, CBS News has learned.


CBS is reporting that he was dishonorably discharged from the Air Force after a court martial.

Prohibited person.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Termite » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:12 am

Langenator wrote:FYI:

Per TPC 46.035 (b)(6) "A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder's person...on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship."

Louisiana also had that restriction in our CCW reg until it was changed.
Now, the governing officials of the church(priest/pastor/rabbi/elders/etc) can give permission for CCW holders to carry inside.

And I'll bet that a lot of Texas church-members are going to start ignoring TPC46.035(b)(6) about.........right now. :?


Wonder what he did to get DD'd from the Air Force????????? :?:
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Jered » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:30 am

2013
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Langenator » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:10 am

According to Fox News, he was court martialed and received a DD from the AF for assaulting his wife and kid.

In the same article, it says that his MIL's mailing address is a PO Box in the town, population 400, where the shooting took place.

Besides the straight math (400 residents, approximately 50 attended that church on any given Sunday), anyone want to give odds that MIL attended that church?
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Termite » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:55 am

Apparently he was chased from the church by armed citizens.

Pursued by an armed resident.
In a press conference Sunday night, Texas Department of Public Safety regional director Freeman Martin said the gunman attacked the church around 11:20am dressed in black "tactical-type gear," CNN reports. Martin said after the massacre, an armed citizen engaged the suspect and then pursued his vehicle. He said after a chase, the gunman was found dead in his vehicle. It's not clear whether the suspect shot himself or was fatally shot by the citizen.
Motorist Johnnie Lagendorff tells KSAT that he chased the suspect in his truck after witnessing the shootout and being approached by the armed citizen, who accompanied him. He says that after the suspect lost control out of his vehicle, the citizen kept his rifle on him. They led police to him when they arrived minutes later.

LINK

So an armed ordinary gunowner stopped the perp from killing even more people..........

MORE:
Freeman Martin, a major in the Texas Rangers and a spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, says the suspect dropped his rifle and fled after being confronted by a local man who had grabbed his rifle.

Freeman provided a timeline of the tragedy in a press briefing Sunday evening.

“At approximately 11:20 this morning a suspect was seen at a Valero gas station in Sutherland Springs, Texas,” Martin said. “He was dressed in all black. That suspect crossed the street to the church, exited his vehicle and began firing at the church.”

“That suspect then moved to the right side of the church and then continued to fire,” he continued. “That suspect entered the church and continued to fire. As he exited the church, a local resident grabbed his rifle and engaged that suspect. The suspect dropped his rifle, which was a Ruger AR assault-type rifle and fled from the church.”

“Our local citizen pursued the suspect at that time,” Freeman went on. “A short time later as law enforcement responded that suspect right at the Wilson/Guadalupe County line crashed out and was found deceased in his vehicle. At this time we don’t know if it was a self-inflicted gunshot wound or if he was shot by the local resident. We know he’s deceased in the vehicle. "


Good Samaritan describes chasing Texas church shooting suspect with another armed citizen.
Western hat, khaki shirt, and tattoo of a Longhorn skull on his neck.
Yep, he's a Texan..... :lol:
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Netpackrat » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:05 pm

Have not been able to confirm, but I read elsewhere that it may have been an AR vs. AR gunfight.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby BDK » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:00 pm

Langenator wrote:FYI:

Per TPC 46.035 (b)(6) "A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder's person...on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship."



Pretty sure that’s been repealed/requires the church to post

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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Rod » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:04 pm

Langenator wrote:FYI:

Per TPC 46.035 (b)(6) "A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder's person...on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship."
This was changed in the last couple of years. The church now has to post the 30.06 signs OR verbally announce that concealed carry isn't welcome. Had the link but lost it last night. Two churches I know of in El Paso actively encourage their parishioners to carry to church.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Vonz90 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:45 pm

I was playing B-ball at church last night and discussed this with one of the pastors. He said that they will probably organize so that at least one or two of the ushers are packing, but they have not worked out the details yet.

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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby blackeagle603 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:13 pm

Has me returning to a line of (incomplete) thought I had in the past about extent of my responsibilities to "the flock" and the practical issues with carrying in church here in non-CCW CA. Have to be unloaded in a locked case...
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Weetabix » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:07 pm

blackeagle603 wrote:Has me returning to a line of (incomplete) thought I had in the past about extent of my responsibilities to "the flock" and the practical issues with carrying in church here in non-CCW CA. Have to be unloaded in a locked case...

If you conceal it deep enough, no one would ever know unless you actually needed it.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby blackeagle603 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:11 pm

I already carry a stack of books with me and a bag/case with my Bible and notes in it. All related to my either teaching, leading music or both on any given Sunday. Probably could go to a knapsack or even briefcase without anyone thinking a thing of it. Put a locking handgun case inside that and be good to go.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Jered » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:34 pm

Officials described the shooter’s weapon as a Ruger AR-556, an assault-style rifle similar to those used by the military. CNN, citing a law enforcement individual, reported that Kelley purchased the weapon in April 2016 from an Academy Sports & Outdoors store in San Antonio.


According to WAPO
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Termite » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:08 pm

blackeagle603 wrote:I already carry a stack of books with me and a bag/case with my Bible and notes in it. All related to my either teaching, leading music or both on any given Sunday. Probably could go to a knapsack or even briefcase without anyone thinking a thing of it. Put a locking handgun case inside that and be good to go.

Here you go.

biblegunsafe.jpg
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Weetabix » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:51 pm

Consult The Book of Armaments?
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby randy » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:08 pm

Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out...
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Steamforger » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:33 pm

I think it would be worthwhile to prevent ad revenue from landing in the news agencies coffers over these stories. This constant coverage and the bloodthirsty salivating over these stories is causing these shitheads to think they can get the newest high score and be famous.

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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Precision » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:45 pm

Steamforger wrote:I think it would be worthwhile to prevent ad revenue from landing in the news agencies coffers over these stories. This constant coverage and the bloodthirsty salivating over these stories is causing these shitheads to think they can get the newest high score and be famous.

which puts us back to not saying Dave Clark shot and killed 27 and wounded 20 others.
We should be saying dickhead #17 killed himself in disgrace after disowning his humanity. His body will be interned in an unmarked grave after being coated in chicken shit.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Netpackrat » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:57 pm

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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Vonz90 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:06 pm

Jered wrote:
Officials described the shooter’s weapon as a Ruger AR-556, an assault-style rifle similar to those used by the military. CNN, citing a law enforcement individual, reported that Kelley purchased the weapon in April 2016 from an Academy Sports & Outdoors store in San Antonio.


According to WAPO


So how did he pass a background check with a DD in his record?

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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Netpackrat » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:10 pm

That info must not have made it into the NICS check. It is being reported that he applied for a Texas CCW and was denied.

Also, it seems to bear repeating:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE9qooFUqsk
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Weetabix » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:24 pm

Vonz90 wrote:So how did he pass a background check with a DD in his record?

I heard on the radio that the DD wasn't accurate. It was maybe a domestic violence conviction while in the .mil? Still a valid question, though, since that should have raised a flag, too.

ETA: he certainly would have falsified a 4473, though, too.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Netpackrat » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:14 pm

It's now being reported that he had a Bad Conduct Discharge. But the domestic violence conviction would still seem to make him a prohibited person.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Langenator » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:29 pm

HotAir has noted this (linking to ABC News): https://hotair.com/archives/2017/11/06/ ... er-killed/

The same article also notes that he received 12 months confinement (prison) for conviction on 2 counts of domestic assault (wife, kid). Depending on how they ran the sentences (consecutive vs concurrent), that might have disqualified him as well, per 922(g)(1). (Actually, given the way 922(g)(1) reads, "any crime punishable by 1 year or more", and the way the UCMJ reads "such punishment as the court shall direct," almost any UCMJ conviction could be disqualifying. (Unless there's something in the non-punitive articles that I missed.)

The same article notes that the state of Texas denied his application for a LTC, presumably due to the conviction, but that the federal system allowed him to buy the gun. So the disconnect presumably existed somewhere between the USAF/DoD and DoJ/FBI/NICS.

In the same post, local/state police seem to be saying that the motive may have been domestic, and the church may have been targeted because the shooter's MIL attended there.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby slowpoke » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:31 am

Termite wrote:Rumor has it the Texas DPS- Criminal Investigation branch is taking the lead. IIRC, that's the Texas Rangers.
EDIT: YEP, sure is.

Abbott should call Trump and ask him to keep the FBI in the background, as the FBI is likely compromised.

Even more now that it came out FBI NICS passed his purchase, when he was a prohibited person :shock:
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Jered » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:35 am

And moonbats are already trying for more gun control.

If it comes out that he passed a background check when he shouldn't have, well, it wouldn't be the first time.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby g-man » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:44 am

Termite wrote:
blackeagle603 wrote:I already carry a stack of books with me and a bag/case with my Bible and notes in it. All related to my either teaching, leading music or both on any given Sunday. Probably could go to a knapsack or even briefcase without anyone thinking a thing of it. Put a locking handgun case inside that and be good to go.

Here you go.

biblegunsafe.jpg

Am I the only one who saw this, noticed the book it opens to, and thought “Shouldn’t that be back a little further, in Judges?”

ETA: or maybe better, at Ezekiel 25:17?
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby scipioafricanus » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:49 am

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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Old Grafton » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:18 am

Sold my cloak and bought a sword a LONG time ago. I have many Brethren in our Church.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby blackeagle603 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:20 am

Am I the only one who saw this, noticed the book it opens to, and thought “Shouldn’t that be back a little further, in Judges?”

ETA: or maybe better, at Ezekiel 25:17?


LOL, Well played sir. Well played. :lol:
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Windy Wilson » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:53 am

Langenator wrote:FYI:

Per TPC 46.035 (b)(6) "A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder's person...on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship."


This must be why the number of dead were so high compared to the shooting in Colorado some years back. This murderer had a rifle and shot through the walls of the sanctuary and two neighbors had to intervene.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Jered » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:58 am

Yahoo is reporting that the Air Force didn't put this guy into NICS.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby g-man » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:42 am

Jered wrote:Yahoo is reporting that the Air Force didn't put this guy into NICS.


The AF already admitted they didn’t put him in NICS appropriately. Wow. There are definitely some careers circling the bowl over that.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Greg » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:41 am

g-man wrote:
Jered wrote:Yahoo is reporting that the Air Force didn't put this guy into NICS.


The AF already admitted they didn’t put him in NICS appropriately. Wow. There are definitely some careers circling the bowl over that.


You'd like to think that, certainly. But I don't understand why you think it's likely.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Netpackrat » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:15 am

Confirmed that Willeford used an AR-15 to stop the murderer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=y ... pp=desktop
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Termite » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:56 am

In summary:

The Airforce and/or the Feds dropped the ball, and did not put Kelley in the the system.

Kelley applied for a Texas CCW permit. The State of Texas did their background check, discovered disqualifing factors, and denied him.

So the Feds failed; the State of Texas did not.

AND, Kelley was stopped by two ordinary armed citizens, not the Feds, or the state/local police.

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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Langenator » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:56 pm

Greg wrote:
g-man wrote:
Jered wrote:Yahoo is reporting that the Air Force didn't put this guy into NICS.


The AF already admitted they didn’t put him in NICS appropriately. Wow. There are definitely some careers circling the bowl over that.


You'd like to think that, certainly. But I don't understand why you think it's likely.


USA Today reported that his conviction came from a General Court Martial, making the conviction equivalent to a felony. So he was doubly disqualified.

The AF dorked up entering him into NCIC, but the screw up was probably made by a junior civilian employee or junior enlisted, of the paralegal or data entry clerk persuasion. Not sure anyone gets roasted over that.

I saw one report, I forget where, that the shooter emptied 15x 30 round mags - 450 rounds.

So this guy was convicted of beating his first wife and kid (baby). The baby had a cracked skull. He was later arrested for beating a dog. He's a grade-A sh*tbag (calling him that is doing a disservice to manure, which is actually useful) and a poster child for people who "just need killin' ". The guy was sending up red flags like a California ranger station in September after a 5 year drought. The sh*tty part is he killed a bunch of innocent people before he got what he deserved.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby scipioafricanus » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:08 pm

Netpackrat wrote:Confirmed that Willeford used an AR-15 to stop the murderer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=y ... pp=desktop

Great interview.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby FelixEstrella » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:10 pm

g-man wrote: Am I the only one who saw this, noticed the book it opens to, and thought “Shouldn’t that be back a little further, in Judges?”


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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Jered » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:53 am

According to CBS he "escaped" from a mental health facility.

Devin Patrick Kelley: What we know about the Texas church shooting suspect Devin Kelley was sent to the Peak Behavioral Health Services Center in Santa Teresa, New Mexico, but escaped on June 13, 2012, fleeing to El Paso, Texas, according to the report.


El Paso police arrested Kelley without incident at a bus stop and turned him over to New Mexico police.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby slowpoke » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:08 am

Jered wrote:According to CBS he "escaped" from a mental health facility.

Devin Patrick Kelley: What we know about the Texas church shooting suspect Devin Kelley was sent to the Peak Behavioral Health Services Center in Santa Teresa, New Mexico, but escaped on June 13, 2012, fleeing to El Paso, Texas, according to the report.


El Paso police arrested Kelley without incident at a bus stop and turned him over to New Mexico police.

Triple prohibited person. I wonder if the people will make a wrongful death claim against the USAF?
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Precision » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:43 am

scipioafricanus wrote:
Netpackrat wrote:Confirmed that Willeford used an AR-15 to stop the murderer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=y ... pp=desktop

Great interview.



yes great interview. Great humble guy.

My only question is why did he not have a single mag already loaded. Down to 2 bullets??? His preparedness was a bit lacking and good thing he was shooting at 20 yards and recognized the vest gap, although if it was kevlar, that does little to stop a rifle bullet, even calibered in poodle shooter.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Netpackrat » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:49 am

Precision wrote:My only question is why did he not have a single mag already loaded. Down to 2 bullets??? His preparedness was a bit lacking and good thing he was shooting at 20 yards and recognized the vest gap, although if it was kevlar, that does little to stop a rifle bullet, even calibered in poodle shooter.


Yeah I don't wanna get critical of some guy who grabbed what he had available and ran towards the gunfire and saved lives, however there are a number of lessons to be taken from the incident. Besides being sure to follow Rule 1 (speaking of the churchgoers), loose ammo not in magazines is nearly useless. If he'd had rounds magged up and handy, possibly more lives could have been saved. And we all need to recognize that reality has changed... Rather than an armored assailant being the exception, we should plan on that being the rule. Was reading in ADN.commie this afternoon about a local garden variety shitbag (14 time career felon) that is going to jail for felon in possession; besides the guns, a set of body armor was found in his possession.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Precision » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:13 pm

Agreed. I was not attempting to besmirch, rather looking to understand why and to draw lessons for my own prep.

My battle belt is what I use for 3 gun. It has 3 pistol and 3 mags on it. They are mostly FMJ. My third mag of AR is a 20 rounder with my precision loaded 77gr Bergers for the prone 200+ yard shots. So really only 1 mag of appropriate social work ammo.

I may have to begin changing out the mags home / vs match. Run a mag of soft points, a mag of green tips and a mag of precision for the AR and 3 mags of JHP for the pistol when at home.
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Wrenchbender1 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:30 am

Jered wrote:And moonbats are already trying for more gun control.


Yup. The fear mongers must be getting a little hoarse from chanting the same thing for decades, so they tried to mix it up by getting Expert AR-15 advice from Gunkid. Yeah, that will put fear in the hearts of the unwashed masses..... :roll:
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Cybrludite » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:11 am

"If it ain't the Devil's Music, you ain't doin' it right." - Chris Thomas King

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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Termite » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:05 pm

I wonder if the chainsaw accessory can be modified to fit a Mini-14................. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Odahi » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:00 am

The chainsaw bayonet is obsolete. The latest thing is the rocket-propelled chainsaw bayonet. Can be bought for $5 on eSlay...
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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Frankingun » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:14 pm

I’m pushing my church for some kind of plan. We also happen to have a neighboring facility that worships the pedophile prophet.
Buy ammunition and magazines.

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Re: Texas church shooting

Postby Termite » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:25 pm

Frankingun wrote: We also happen to have a neighboring facility that worships the pedophile prophet.

Invite them to your next pork barbeque............. :mrgreen:
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