buyin' an EBR

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mulligan

buyin' an EBR

Post by mulligan »

my next major purchase needs to be a rifle. I'll probably pick up some sort of inexpensive varmint rifle that fires .22LR just cuz ammo is cheaper and I need more practice with technique than anything else at the moment.

But long term I'm going to want to hunt more than rabbits so I'll need something in a larger caliber. I've been haunting gun shows to learn what I can about the assorted EvilBlackRifles and my brain is brim full of various versions of 'our brand is better' .. sigh ....

I'm army trained to fire whatever they issue me so the concept of picking a rifle out is new and honestly I don't have a bunch of money to tie up in guns that don't earn their keep. I'd love to be a collector but that's pretty much up to the lotto gods. So I don't want to muck this up by doing more buying/selling/swapping than necessary.

I know my army standard issue jammed constantly unless it was soaked in lube, but it's my understanding that things have evolved some in the last 15 years.

I'm hoping y'all can help me sort through the fluff and sales pitches some

thanks
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Whirlibird
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Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by Whirlibird »

With the AR platform EBR, if you're gonna build one, stick with one manufacturer (ha) for the parts (kit), reducing the nubber of variables in fit goes a long way in increasing reliability.
As for lower receivers, pick a name you like, most are excellent and made by a very few actual 'makers'.

If you're gonna buy a competed one, you can't go wrong with a Colt. They're not cheap but they do make them right. After several classes and more builds/repairs than I can remember, the Colt made AR's were still standing at the end of the classes. Depending on where you live, one of the post-ban "sporter's" may be worth a look. The Sporter's I've had generally shot better than the same weapon with a flash hider, go figure.

Bushmaster is a good choice. Lots of choices, my personal work M-4gery has a Bushy upper on it and no complaints. (aside from caliber)

Any of the "name" shop guns like Wilson Combat, Lauer, POF-Inc, Barrett, Stag Arms, Rock River, etc is pretty much gonna run like a scalded cat.

Even the Olympic Arms 'plinkers' have been a good runners in classes if the operator paid attention and didn't use crap ammo.

A lot of the issues attributed to military (and civvy) AR's is because of the 'arsenal' rework. All too often the parts used to repair a weapon are of a dimension that is within specifications but creates either too much slop or a too tight condition when it's thrown back together. Use parts that are at opposite ends of the tolerence limits and you are going to have issues regardless if they're mil-spec or not. Normally in the civvy world this is more of a hodgepodge of parts assembled to resemble a rifle from a dozen different makers and a hope that they all somehow come together and work right the first time.

After all that, I'd recommend skipping the .223 in favor of the 6.8mmSPC. It at least can earn it's room and board in the hunting fields. I know of a number of deer and a couple of cow elk that have falled to it so far. The ammo isn't cheap but it is available unlike .223 some days and again it's of hunting power not poodle popping levels. And if you're gonna shoot something the size of a deer, would you rather use something that's built to shoot a deer sized critter or something designed to shoot sod-poodles?

And despite the cost of .308 ammo today, I'd also recommend the DSArms FAL's or the DPMS LR-308T. The DPMS for it's accuracy (and reliability), mags aren't cheap @$45 a piece for 19 rounders but dang it's accurate.
The FAL's are not as accurate but are ultra reliable.

And of course both are basic black for that L-EBR factor. (Large - Evil Black Rifle)
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Kommander
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Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by Kommander »

You have three basic options here. A "Main Battle Rifle" in .308/7.62x51, an AK in 7.62x39, or an EBR in .223/5.56x45. I do not recommend that you get a rifle in a more esoteric calibers such as the 6.8 or 6.5 due to the additional cost of ammo and lack of support for these calibers as compared to the three listed above.

For main battle rifles in the .308/7.62x51 range you have 3 basic options. The M1A (Semi auto M14), the FAL, and the HK G3. The M1A is the most accurate of the bunch, but also the most expensive (both in rifle and mags) and the most traditional in design. The FAL is the most popular of the 3, used by damn near every western power during the cold war with the exception of the US and Germany (where is was used for a short time before being replaced by the G3). Many people consider the FAL to be the best semi auto battle rifle ever made. The G3 is similar to the FAL in that it is a post war design with a pistol grip though the ergonomics are not as good as the FAL. The main advantage of the G3 is that the mags are very cheap right now, like under $5 a mag cheap.

The AK in 7.62x39 is well, an AK. If you are looking for an inexpensive rifle with box of rocks simplicity then this is the rifle for you. There are too many variants to go into too much detail but I will cover some high points. The cheapest AKs out there are the Romanian WSARs. These start at about $380 for the basic rifle with wooden stock, are of the standard AKM design and will therefore take most available AK accessories, and are reasonably accurate. What they are not is pretty. A more expensive option would be a US made AK such as a Lancaster and Vector and start at about 600. these rifles will have a better fit and finish than the WSARs and much better quality control. At the high end of the scale are the "Russian" rifles that go for 850+. While the quality on these guns is quite good, you are paying more mainly to have a AK that says "Made In Russia" on it. Oh and there is .223 AKs too, if you are into that kind of thing. mags are a bit pricey though.

At the .223/5.56x45 end things are changing more right now than they have in years. For years if you wanted a .223 EBR you got an AR-15 type rifle. However in the past few years a few new options have become available. The Sig 556 and the Robson are recent newcomers, with the Magpul/Bushmaster Masada/ACR to be released in Q1 of 2009 *cough*vaporware*cough*. So much has been written about the AR-15 series that all I will say is that it is the cheapest of the options and has the most accessories available for it. All of these rifles take the STANAG mag so if you do get one just buy a bunch of Magpul P-mags in you choice of colors and be done with it.

The Sig 556 is based on the 550 series of rifles currently employed by the Swiss military. Some changes where made to the original Swiss military rifle to make them more acceptable to the US marked such as using an aluminum lower that uses AR style stock and mags, changing the hand guards (WHY!), and adding a rail to the top of the gun. The base models of this rifle cost $1200-$1400 with some of the more premium models going for up to $2000. This gun currently has the Kommander EBR stamp of approval. The XCR is made by Robinson Arms and its primary selling points are its caliber interchangeability, use of many widely available AR parts, and simple operation that requires little cleaning. It comes with enough rail real estate to put whatever lights, lasers, and scopes you may need on it. Currently it is available in 6.8 SPC and 7.62x39 in addition to the normal .223.

My current EBRs are a Bulgarian AK and a Sig 556 "Commando" IE comes with green furniture that more closely resembles what the Swiss military used. I have owned a SAR-1 that worked well enough and a Bushmaster AR that had extraction issues. My Sig 556 is one of my favorite guns and if you can bear the price I recommend it. If you have any more specific questions on any of these or other EBRs feel free to ask. Despite my rantings above I am by no means an expert but I will help you where I can.


Most of the guns mentioned here are available at J&G and Atlantic Firearms.
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Darrell
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Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by Darrell »

Check out AIM Surplus too:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/New_Long_Guns.html

They show Imbel FALs going for $1600, Robinson XCRs going for $1800 (darn, I coulda got one two years ago for $1300). Looks like their best buy at the moment is a Bulgarian classic AK for $625, or Del-Ton's M4orgery for $670. EBR prices have shot up before the election, for fear of Obamaramadingdong taking over. If that's a concern, you might want to buy something before the election.
Eppur si muove--Galileo
mulligan

Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by mulligan »

the election has definitely moved my plans from the 'eventually' category to the 'asap' category and my concern about post election repercussions has driven a re-prioritization of funds.

The idea of multiple caliber support is a plus in my book. Should bad things happen and one type of ammo get banned or scarce or expensive, I would still be shooting the same rifle without changing grip, scope, etc.

Overall cost is an issue, but I don't mind investing in the right tool for the job. While the immediate purpose is to get one in my home while its legal, the need to practice without busting the budget is a consideration as well. Eventually, I should be able to cut the grocery bill and buy ammo to fill the freezer but that's still a ways off.

Is accessory compatibility an issue or is it just a matter of finding the right mounting brackets?
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Darrell
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Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by Darrell »

mulligan wrote: While the immediate purpose is to get one in my home while its legal, the need to practice without busting the budget is a consideration as well. Eventually, I should be able to cut the grocery bill and buy ammo to fill the freezer but that's still a ways off.

Is accessory compatibility an issue or is it just a matter of finding the right mounting brackets?
You'll find that .308/7.62x51 is expensive, unless you buy Russian stuff like Brown Bear. Ditto for .223/5.56x45. 7.62x39 is much cheaper. 5.45x39 is about the cheapest thing going nowadays (though much of it is corrosive--you just need to clean the gun right after shooting), and who knows what's down the road? Buy it cheap and stack it deep while you can. If the SHTF, availability might favor .223. Also, in a SHTF situation, to be seen carrying an AR might have less of a bad guy factor than to be seen carrying an AK.

Accessories definitely favor the AR platform. If you get an AK type, try and find one with the side mount, it's how most AK accessories attach to the gun.
Eppur si muove--Galileo
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Netpackrat
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Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by Netpackrat »

This looks like a pretty good deal for a Hungarian AK in 7.62x39. I've got an AK built from an AMD-65 kit, and the parts are nice quality, definitely nicer than anything coming out of Romania, and easily equal to the Polish kit that I built. The barrel they are using to assemble the listed rifle isn't the original though, which was about 12.5". I read somewhere they are using a 14+" barrel and permanently attaching the original muzzle brake to achieve legal barrel length for a rifle. I built mine as a pistol, so I was okay with the original barrel.

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/AKAGUN-AMD.aspx
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Whirlibird
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Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by Whirlibird »

Lack of support?
6.8mmSPC

Silver State Armory

S-G 6.8 Silver State

Yes it's expensive but the trade off in effectiveness in my opinion more than makes up for the price difference. And with el-cheapo .308 going upwards of $.50 for junk, it's not as bad as it looks. And it's not like someone can't handload.

And having had to shoot a mid-size critter recently with a .223, I want more than a poodle-gun to depend on.

But realistically, if you want an AR platform, decide what size you want, .223 or .308.
Once you have the receiver, you can always finish it later.

Somethings to consider:
DPMS AR-10 Lower Assy

Essential Arms AR-15

Once you have them, they're yours.
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Kommander
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Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by Kommander »

Yes, lack of support when compared to 7.62x51, 7.62x39, and 5.56x45. Not every gun store it going to have 6.8 mags and ammo, whereas the WILL have stuff for the three above. This does not make the 6.8 a bad round or a bad choice, but for someone new to the EBR game I think staying within those 3 calibers is the best bet.
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evan price
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Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by evan price »

Basically you need to consider three items:

One: What would you use it for? I'm not talking about need, I'm talking about where you live and how you expect to use it- is it the Zombie Apocalypse gun?
Is it the society collapsed and you need to fend off Mad Max gun?
Is it the long-range shooter?
Do you forsee a need to have it available but not visible? (Folding stock for example)
Are you concerned with NATO ammo compatability?
Do you want an MOA shooter?
Do you like blued steel and wood or do you want parkerized and black polymer?

.223 is really only good for 300 yards MAX. Anything more than that and you are talking .308 or above. Have you got a place where you can do 300 yard shooting?

Two: Do you want to pimp it up with lots of gizmos, like green lasers, night vision, forward bayonet adapters, railed quadrail adapters (with extra rails), phasers, shaving mirrors and a spotlight? ARs are easy to accessorize. AKs are not as easy (but it can be done).

Three: How much do you want to spend including the rifle AND a stack of full-capacity magazines? Having a neato EBR isn't cool when you have one mag, and it breaks. AR mags, for example, are basically a consumable part.

Basically you can choose between a main battle rifle such as a FAL, G3, CETME, M14, M1 Garand (in a manly chambering such as .30-06 or .308 Win) or an assault rifle like an AK or AR in an intermediate caliber like .223 Rem or 7.62x39.

AK74 ammo (5.45x39) is the cheapest right now but it is all surplus foriegn military ammo. Wolf has some of it now, but all foreign ammo is a presidential executive order away from banned from importation. Just consider that and buy a lot of 5.45 if you want one. Buy cheap, stack deep.

Let's not forget the carbines: The M4, the M1 Carbine, and all the pistol-caliber carbines like the KelTech Sub-2000, the HiPoint 995, the Ruger & Beretta carbines, plus the Mini-14 and -30 in intermediate calibers...the FN PS90... lots of shooty goodness out there.
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